J-Euro Samplepack

[Darkholme]

The guys over at the doujin cicles A-One and Digital Wing (A-One mostly famous here as being a big part of the Touhou Eurobeat compilation series) have decided to release a sample CD filled with useful eurobeat samples, much like the Newfield sample pack.

There's no release date yet, but the price is apparently set for 1000 yen (10 dollars)

Source: http://eurobeatunion.blog.fc2.com/blog-entry-13.html

[Lebon14]

Oh! I'll try to grab that. Gotta be useful for mixing.

[zoupzuop2]

キタ━━━(゜∀゜)━━━!!!!!

[eXtaticus]

-redacted-

[zoupzuop2]

inb4 everyone uses it and no independent eurobeat artists have a unique sound anymore

and I'll be like

"Back in MYYYYYY day, we had to learn how to create the synth brass OURSELVES!"

like the pseudo-superior cretin that I am.

But seriously, as if everyone trying to sound exclusively like DJ Command wasn't already becoming a problem...

For people who are just starting out, looking for a specific sound their existing synthesis setup doesn't permit, or just plain want something new, here is nothing wrong at all with samples. I'll admit I've used too many of the bass samples from the Newfield kit in my time (and my own excessive reverence for the aforementioned DJ Command might have spurred you comment on it), but really, better that more people are making the genre in the first place than being forced to learn EVERYTHING at the very start.

I for one look forward to seeing what new creators can bring to the table with a couple of these tools. Yes, too much dependence on samples is a crutch (I say, hobbling over to you on BassoG.wav), but if it means more people know and can make Eurobeat then I am unquestionably all for it.

[Darkholme]

Bit of an update: I asked about the release date, and got back that they're gonna release it during the next Comiket. Hopefully they'll put it up online as well afterwards

[Lebon14]

Bit of an update: I asked about the release date, and got back that they're gonna release it during the next Comiket. Hopefully they'll put it up online as well afterwards

Next Comiket. I believe that it's the last days of December. I wonder if they'll release it online for everybody to buy and not just Japanese people.

[eXtaticus]

-redacted-

[zoupzuop2]

Holy cow big post. It'll be a couple days before I have a proper wifi connection so I'll be a while before I can give this a PROPER response, but I can chip at a few points on the ol' iPhone.

Every genre will have its popular sound-exemplar (Skrillex for dubstep, Elvis Presley for old rockabilly, old-school Metallica for metal), and while some of this is probably my fault for putting him up on such a high pedestal growing up (and others taking it into account), DJ Command is perhaps the best example I can think of when it comes to independent eurobeat producers. I will admit that the string focus on HIS sound alone is problematic (again probably my fault), but again, every style has that person everyone wants to imitate (and given my crappy mixing, I'm somewhat grateful it's seldom me they put in his place).

One priblem I'm having with your post is that the amount of people going "I WANT 2 MAEK YOOROWBEET TOOZ" is simply too small to be of immediate worry or threat to our community. Even if their initial entries are poor, they can start somewhere. Yes, dependence on samples alone is discourageable, and does not teach proper sound design, but if you have the other nine ducks in a row in terms of sound, I wouldn't hold it against a producer to toss a sample or two in, as long as it's not bone dry. As well, right now "oversaturation" is the exact opposite of eurobeat's problem- we need more of it, in more places, and that means getting more people aware of it and producing it. I'm okay wih giving bits of my 'sound' out because some producers may soon grow weary of sounding like me and pioneer a new sound and style with the confidence they built while leaning upon those crutches. I imagine the folks at Digital Wing and A-One feel the same.

You DO sound cynical- worryingly so in such a very short amount of time. You've improved IMMENSELY and quickly, and you've grown into quite a formidable member of the indie eurobeat community, but instead of the nearly trademark happiness I've seen from others who have found and begun producing in the style, I've seen in you a far less positive state in some of the things I've seen you say, and it saddens me to wonder what may be causing you this much despair in what should be a wonderful, fun style and (painfully small and niche, but growing) community.

In eiher case, will attempt more thorough answer when next I can.

[DarkSky]

Good.

[zoupzuop2]

Okay. I can finally sit down and respond to the post in full.

I suppose I've not really got much authority to comment, seeing as I use the default FL Studio drum samples - but with drum samples, there are millions of packs out there to cater for every need; I filtered through a fair few free packs, and wasn't able to find anything closer to what I was looking for than the bone-stock FL Kick/Clap/Hat/Snare combo.

I'm hardly in any position to fault you for using "default" drum samples— if they work well, use 'em. When I was still learning I used default Logic and Garageband kits. The expansion packs are also quite nice and have decent strings.

But my worry is that with these massive eurobeat sample packs, it's all too easy to rip an entire soundscape from an existing producer and hammer out tracks in a diluted, inferior replica of their style. You can't easily edit samples; when sharing basic starter-packs of patches from Massive or Vanguard or whatever, you're providing building blocks for another producer to build upon - whereas with samples, they're not learning the essential synthesis skills. It's like sharing the source code for a piece of software; the next person can change the sound indefinitely, or learn techniques and principals from your work.

You do make a good point that samples don't have the right flexibility or adaptability for people to learn from. That's an inherent problem with samples and I'll grant you that much.

However, in terms of hammering out inferior replicas... to an extent, that's precisely how most people learn the tropes and tricks of their given genre. The problem arises when that's ALL they make (which I think we both agree on, I do think you bring that up later on in your post).

Samples are still a tool, though I will concede they are indeed harder to work with than true synthesis patches. Then again, not every producer will want (or be able to afford) the synthesizers for which these patches are created, so without a tutorial to back it up they may be somewhat SOL.

In short... for beginners or people who are LITERALLY just one tick away from that sound they're looking for, I'm all for using samples. But yes, they are inferior to the pure synthesized versions.

Sharing samples, on the other hand? It's basically giving them a quick-and-dirty easy way out - and inexperienced producers are likely to flood the scene with poor-quality, derivative tracks that sully the identity of the original sound. I can tell, for example, when people deliberately try to rip off your sound using vaguely edited EXS24 presets, zoup, and it's painfully cheesy to listen to. Actually giving these people a real, complete eurobeat synthbrass will only devalue the sound and propagate lazy unoriginality. Yes, we might get the odd person whose primary skill is in composition as opposed to music production using the samples to make proof-of-concept tracks - but the number of "I want 2 make yurobeetz 2" wannabes who'll treat the genre like some kind of quick-fix fad without really trying to make anything original-sounding will drown us.

Here's the problem I have with the italicized portion of your statement— right now Eurobeat is so incredibly niche and ill-known/recognized that even an influx of poor-to-bad producers would be a net gain for the purpose of Eurobeat's spread in the world. There simply aren't enough people for that 'influx' to be a problem, unless/until Eurobeat itself became truly as popular as other forms of electronic dance. There aren't enough drops of water to drown us, or even soak our feet.

My problem with the underlined portion is such: giving out a fully functional synth-brass will NOT "only" devalue it and spread it to exclusively those who can't do well with it. Some people may be able to use it to learn how to use it properly after all, or maybe even find uses for it outside of Eurobeat. I've stressed in my own tutorials with the patch that any one single sound will not necessarily do the trick or be "enough", and if a producer can't learn how to use it properly, audiences will likely move on to someone who can use it properly (or at least "abuses" it in an interesting new way).

As well, to an extent, the wonderful thing about the independent Eurobeat scene is that it truly is a free market for sounds— fans can spot a wooden nickel for the most part, as well as truly unoriginal Eurobeat tracks. There will be fans of those, sure, but there's only so long the 'same damn thing', if you will, can last on the market, and they'll move on to something more innovative and interesting within the scene.

Imagine torrents of talentless randomers using nothing but Nexus wubs to make dubstep, but swap the wubs out for synthbrass and the dubstep out for eurobeat.

That'd be a sign that Eurobeat was actually popular around the world for once, which wouldn't be too bad. I do get your point though... still, even if there WERE indeed 'torrents' of these people, there would still be standouts. There ARE people who can wrangle some okay sounds from even the simplest of setups, and many of these do end up standing out.

Think about it— why do some artists in other forms of EDM blend in, and others stand out? Many of them are using the same Ableton Live, NI Komplete, LaunchPad or Traktor Kontrol setups for production and performance. They key is the musicianship itself, not necessarily their use (or lack thereof) of Nexus/Modern Talking/[insert-disliked-production-trope-here]. Hell, if someone makes a good-sounding track with Soundgoodizer, good on 'em.

...I do still get your point, though. Hearing nothing but the same old presets in what is essentially the same song over and over would be grating. I do feel that's why it's important to continually point out previous releases, the songs of those who inspired us. There's SO much variety in what has already existed that I continue to insist that it's crucial for well-meaning producers to know these songs, that they may be inspired by them to change what is to come. The existing sound is so well established (in some ways TOO well established) that it would be hard to truly destroy it with as few people in the scene overall (producers OR listeners) as we have.

Samples don't help you to learn sound design any more than listening to actual finished tracks does; it's like trying to learn CGI skills from looking at still renders of individual character models. Share a preset or a project file, however, and you'll teach a producer a skill-set to expand with their own talent, original quirks and further knowledge and research. I learned to create eurobeat via trial and error, and from learning how to use individual synths and effects plugins - and I deliberately avoided tutorials, so I have a slightly quirky sound, because I nurtured a slightly different process of doing things.

I understand your view up until avoiding tutorials. There IS merit in completely blazing one's own trail, but there are reasons those tutorials exist, and not just for exactly replicating someone else's sound. They can also be used to understand WHY certain elements of genres or songs are present, and in some cases even explain certain features of a synthesizer, DAW, or program that may have otherwise been unclear. It's how I learned what does what in Massive, anyway. ._.

Within the space of roughly a year, I went from this to this, and in that time, never used samples for anything but sound effects and drums. Note how in both tracks, I'm still using the same set of drum samples, the same DX7-like bass patch and the same gated synth pattern in the background - but everything has been vastly improved, and I've retained an original style while learning and improving by analysing examples of other people's eurobeat and combining that with newly learned production techniques. The effects and processing, arp patterns, unique, multi-layered lead synths and vocal effects - you can't learn this stuff from using pre-packaged sample packs, as most of the work is done for you. You learn from experience - and, if I'm honest, trial and unavoidable error.

You DO learn from experience, that's true— but you also learn from others, what has worked for them, what they've managed to implement in their songs. And yes, arpeggios and certain leads can't be learned from sample packs alone, and an uninspired producer may never learn if that was all on which they leaned. However, I don't think this means all sample packs should be cast aside— I actually HAVE learned a thing or two from a nicely tuned sample (at the VERY least, it's given me something to attempt to imitate in my own synthesis/sound design efforts).

It's the whole "give a man a fish" vs. "teach a man to fish" proverb. This post is dragging on.

It's actually a well-placed metaphor, I must say.

But yeah, the comment about "everyone trying to sound like DJ Command" wasn't at all directed at you personally - but I can't tell the difference between ELEMENTAS and DJ Command anymore. Equinox has told me that he's "going for the DJ Command sound". DeltaBrony has also told me that he's "going for the DJ Command sound". Hell, even I sound a little bit like DJ Command, and I'm after more of a modern-day SCP, Dima or Delta vibe; I don't really listen to much DJ Command beyond limited quantities of the Toho Eurobeat stuff.

The DJ Command idolization is sort of my own fault. I've publicly idolized his sound in a lot of ways, and I think people have taken it to mean "if I sound more like DJ Command, I'll be like Odyssey", which is a terrible takeaway. While I do believe you're missing out if all you've heard is his TEB stuff (much less his OTHER Touhou-related releases~!), there are other producers after which fledgling producers should aspire, and I could probably stand to address this a bit. As for Delta... I know. But frankly he's enjoying himself and means no ill will, and who am I to deny him that delight? I don't think he is any sort of threat to Eurobeat's well-being.

So... why are they handing out sample packs to enable even more fledgling producers to sound like DJ Command? There's already a dude who sounds like DJ Command. He's called Youhei Hiroshige, you may have heard of him.

I honestly don't think Japanese indie producers give much of a fuck about international indie producers unless we directly invade their territory. I think they're meaning more for people to have more tools for their own works. And, yes, samples mean they're less potent than synthesis, but just about ANYONE can work with a sample and it's still a great way to get people started or at least (if poorly) supplement an intermediate-level producer's missing pieces.
I've spoken with Mr. Hiroshige on multiple occasions. To be honest the way you phrase it here is a bit harsh.

It's why I react so badly when people tell me that I should "sound more like Odyssey"; I tell them that if they want Odyssey tracks, then they should probably go get some from Odyssey. It'll be the same reaction when people inevitably start telling me to be another DJ Command (already, I've actually been asked to do a eurobeat cover of Melt). I mean, I've gotten several questions on Tumblr and Skype about the Newfield pack, one of which - I shit you not - told me that I "should use it because Odyssey does".

If you point those people out to me, I've half a mind to tear them a new asshole. You should sound like yourself as much as you want, only sound like me if you damned well want to, and they're slapping you (and other producers) in the face if they're DARING to suggest that your existing sound is 'inadequate' in comparison to my own. You truly have improved, eX, and these people pressuring you to sound more like me can get screwed in half by oncoming traffic, I'll drive the first car.

I do enjoy and endorse the Newfield pack for those who need to get started and don't quite have the money for proper synthesizers yet, or just need a couple of sounds to get them by until they can recreate those themselves, but... like you said, people shouldn't be buying them to sound like me, or DJ Command, or anyone else— they should be buying these tools to use them as tools for their own sounds. I particularly enjoy the basses (which I know are DX7 samples... I'm extremely poor at FM synthesis, so it may be a while before I can create basses for myself! ¬¬; ), but these tools are a "may" and a "could", not a "must" and a "should", and I'm doing the eurobeat scene a disservice if I've made them appear that way.

Anyway, that's my dysfunctional relationship with sample packs. They decrease originality, don't teach proper production methods, over-saturate genres with a single "sound" and dominate the inexperienced indies to the point at which we'll become tired of the sounds themselves do to their overuse. It might get more talented writers a foothold in eurobeat, but unless they dig in first, their content will be lost in a raging ocean of other DJ Command sound-alikes, and will likely be forgotten. Oh, and presets, patches and proper tutorials >>> samples.

I still think that samples only over-saturate genres if the genres themselves are popular enough to warrant over-saturation. Think of it this way— there ARE sample packs to "sound like Skrillex", and some producers buy them and, sure enough, they "sound like" (a really poor version of "Skrillex" (probably using way too much un-modified Modern Talking and Sample+Hold). They... fade into the background, as the musicians who used those same tools to sound like THEMSELVES rise up. If I may bastardize your metaphor, if I wanted to hear Skrillex, I'd listen to Skrillex. I listen to Zomboy because he's NOT Skrillex, and his sound is in some ways wildly different (he seems to have more of a sense of humor and melody I appreciate). I listen to Savant from time to time because he's NOT Skrillex OR Zomboy (that and, I try to support the musicians who have kicked my ass in Beatport contests ¬¬; ). A lot of them use the same tools, in some cases they may even use the same samples (COUGHxcoresnareCOUGH). The best producers rise above because they sound unique in their own right, and the same sample between two talented producers can be a very powerful addition for two different reasons.
I will agree that a sample in the hands of a despondent and unmotivated producer may do some damage, but that should not in and of itself ban (or even discourage) their use in such a still-internationally-unknown genre as ours.

...put another way, samples are a lot more democratic— by increasing how many people are able to work with it, you invariably get it out to some people who will not know how to properly use it or make something truly "new" or useful with it. Patches/presets or original project files require people to have that program, which restricts how many people can use it which may cause others in the community to cry out "elitism" or "favoritism" (or in some cases, "circlejerk"). It's a tough balance.

Overall, I'd rather see more people give it a shot and get it wrong, than less people, afraid to "destroy the sanctity of Eurobeat", and watch it fade further into obscurity. Who knows? Such bastardizations have created wonderful new genres before, and I wonder where we'd be if Italo Disco didn't dare speed up "too much".

[eXtaticus]

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[zoupzuop2]

Okay. After reading that, I actually feel that my original point was somewhat extreme, and given what you've said, I'd like to amend it.

It was interesting hearing someone else's perspective on this. My "no tutorialzzz" point was pretty dumb and arrogant, and the way I phrased the comment about DJ Command was indeed too harsh. I suppose that I'd already worked myself up a bit by that point; these essay posts always end up more extreme than I really want them to be.

Emotions run hot in eurobeat, I tell ye.

In any case, I hadn't actually considered eurobeat's popularity as factor in my statement that poor-quality tracks would "flood" the scene. That was... something of an oversight on my part.

I believe that, while samples can be great for the reasons you mentioned (and it was great hearing someone else's perspective on this), a degree of caution needs to be exercised by those using the samples. Not totally binging on a whole soundworld composed solely of stock samples, while still not being afraid to use them because "everyone else does".

And hey, there's no reason why we can't give people proper tutorials on how to make eurobeat sounds in a variety of different plugins to compound the samples. Like, "this is why this sample sounds the way it does, and this is how to re-create it".

A healthy balance of different learning techniques is probably better than saying "DON'T USE SAMPLES EVVARRRR". That way, we'll be more easily able to discern who's truly motivated.

Careful, tasteful use of samples in moderation + a willingness to learn alternative techniques + experimentation = everybody wins. Each method isn't necessarily incompatible, after all; there's no reason why we can't do both.

I'm not feeling particularly well at the moment, (major cop-out, I know) so I'm sorry if it sounds like my brain hasn't engaged properly, but I think we've reached a decent synthesis. And I'm so glad that I highlight posts while reading them. :V

(Speaking of synthesis, FM is rad, but it's a tricky, unpredictable beast; it's harder to visualise and predict what's going to happen to the sound than, say, a subtractive synthesiser, but I recommend playing with EFM1 and then working up to some more complex stuff. People have made some decent dubstep using the Sega Genesis' built-in FM synth, so it's technically possible even on simple software.)

No worries. If we didn't get passionate about the things we love to SOME extent, there'd be little discussion worthy of merit. You could say it reaches... a HOT LIMIT? DOHOHOHOHOhohoho ohgod I'm so sorry
While Eurobeat is NOT sufficiently popular to worry about a large influx or flood, it IS receiving more attention on the independent level in the last two or three years, so your view on it wasn't entirely unfounded. Oversight, indeed, though not by all that much.

No worries on the health situation, I hope you get well soon.

I have FM8, and I know how to recreate a basic sawtooth and square using two or three sine waves, but... past that, I don't know how to recreate anything specific. I think I need to put my nose back to the grindstone and check out some FM synthesis basics soon, it'd be nice to use my own bass sounds for multiple genres. EFM1 isn't too bad tho.

[Equinox]

Gonna chime in on this. I feel like indie Eurobeat artists should learn to synthesize, but samples aren't all bad. I really don't think we can complain too much about things sounding the same... This is Eurobeat after all. The same Nord Lead and JD-800 patches were used for like 15 years for the brass sound in a shit-ton of SEB songs. If they want to release a sample pack, that's fine. I personally wouldn't use it, though.

For people just starting to make Eurobeat, getting decent sounds can be pretty tough if you don't know how to program synthesizers already. I think it'd be acceptable to use samples as placeholders or temporary sounds until you figure out your own sound. I used to use the GarageBand Cheerful Trance thing on my old songs until I developed a better sound.

I do think that there needs to be more experimentation on the sound-design front, though. Eurobeat typically tends to use very similar sounds in every song when it doesn't really have to. As for the internet being flooded with shitty releases because of this sample pack, I'd have to say that's not really going to change anything. If people are going to make a bad song, they're going to make a bad song regardless of presets or samples.

[DarkSky]

http://alice-books.com/item/show/2507-1