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Bonkers
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Post by Bonkers » 07 Dec 2012, 03:27

para_rigby wrote:While I understand all of this being legal, I still feel that this complicates a root issue of it being harder for non-Asian eurobeat fans to obtain songs without huge amounts of money. I often lament the 30.00+ USD price for a single album. I would love to invest money into this genre, but that is coming to a price that many cannot afford (speaking as a college student, here).

What do others think?
I am with you, Rigby. Avex should try to network with American DJs/record labels who could release a SEB-mirrored series here in the States. I would love to be able to walk into a local Wal-Mart or FYE and pick up a "SEB"/Eurobeat album (I am not much of a downloader). It's ridiculous that if we want a physical SEB cd, we have to pay $40+. I search around on Ebay for used copies under $30 (try to shoot for under $25 if possible). Where as I don't think Eurobeat as a genre could survive as "mainstream status", I could see it becoming big in the American rave scene due to its tempo and hyper characteristics. Para Para would be hard to begin here in the States as well, but the music is what's most important.

I mean, look at Happy Hardcore music. There is no way it would have taken off in the States had it not been for Anabolic Frolic standing up and networking with the European labels and getting the tracks to mix on a cd and release it in the States.

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Post by DarkSky » 07 Dec 2012, 12:08

I fully agree on the things you say. However as I explained due to licensing agreements that differ for each label it's extremely difficult to release music out of Japan.

The only way this can be done is that all labels sign the same licensing agreement with the same conditions, for the same time. But I don't see this happening anytime soon as the labels have just signed their contracts for a next period of Super Eurobeat.

Avex is doing some ''advertising'' on Facebook etc now and we have seen some other positive developments (Eurobeat DNA). However, having SEB sold out of Japan is a hell of a job and will not happen anytime soon. Let's first create a solid fanbase in Japan again and then eventually after this contract period look for new possibilities to expand the Eurobeat market internationally. But we've got enough on our mind at the moment to get Eurobeat up and running in Japan again.

:-)

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Post by Lebon14 » 07 Dec 2012, 23:37

Copyright is just pure BS and this discussion just proves it. It stops innovation.
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Post by zoupzuop2 » 08 Dec 2012, 00:15

Lebon14 wrote:Copyright is just pure BS and this discussion just proves it. It stops innovation.
Copyright and Publishing Rights are almost entirely different fields (and are treated as separate streams of revenue).
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Post by Lebon14 » 08 Dec 2012, 07:37

zoupzuop2 wrote:
Lebon14 wrote:Copyright is just pure BS and this discussion just proves it. It stops innovation.
Copyright and Publishing Rights are almost entirely different fields (and are treated as separate streams of revenue).
It doesn't make any difference to me...
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drnrg
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Post by drnrg » 09 Dec 2012, 05:26

Lebon14
Copyright is just pure BS and this discussion just proves it. It stops innovation
It doesn't make any difference to me...
Same here. I'm very indifferent to all this as well...


and... you guys stop dreaming. Don't you know anything about the American music industry? It's not about advertising, copy right, air TIME. None of that B.S.

The only way Eurobeat would make in the U.S; or that you will find one in Wal Mart, is if it was sung by there own artists. Rihanna, Ke$ha, Neo. .ect.. oh and Justin Bieber, just in case you want variety? Maybe; Kelly Clarkson or Adam Lambert(real talent), if you are lucky..and all songs must give credit to Ryan Tedder, Pitbull and David Guetta.

If the Eurobeat genre took these steps; I assure you it would become mainstream and produce a number one song every week...and I would stop listeing to it forever.


I challange you to say I'm wrong :D

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Post by zoupzuop2 » 09 Dec 2012, 09:09

Drnrg.

I DO happen to know a thing or two about the American Music Industry as someone who has shed blood sweat and tears in it, and your assumption that the people who read this forum don't is rude and wrong (as is a great deal of your post). ANY forum or community is served ill by posts such as yours when you get on a kick about American music (the fact that you listen to a couple of American rock groups does NOT clear your obvious bias and hatred). You have offended me greatly by assuming that the work I do on a day-to-day basis to keep myself fed, clothed and sheltered is, and I quote, "B.S".

(By the way, Air Time, Advertising and Copyright have PLENTY to do with the music industry in ANY country. Don't make statements like this about my industry simply because you don't like some of the things my country has made, especially when they are completely wrong.)

I'd take your challenge but I question how open you are to learning anything about the music you hate without listening to much of it, if you're "very indifferent to it all". The Eurobeat community ill needs such blatant and willing ignorance.
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Post by Bonkers » 09 Dec 2012, 16:13

drnrg wrote:
and... you guys stop dreaming. Don't you know anything about the American music industry? It's not about advertising, copy right, air TIME. None of that B.S.

The only way Eurobeat would make in the U.S; or that you will find one in Wal Mart, is if it was sung by there own artists. Rihanna, Ke$ha, Neo. .ect.. oh and Justin Bieber, just in case you want variety? Maybe; Kelly Clarkson or Adam Lambert(real talent), if you are lucky..and all songs must give credit to Ryan Tedder, Pitbull and David Guetta.
The Happy2bHardcore series had no American singers and yet it was Moonshine Music's largest selling cd series ("The first Happy 2b Hardcore release in 1997 sold 100,000 copies").....Just Saying....My point, is that foreign dance music can make it in the States without appealing to what the commercial clubber wants.

I do agree with you on one thing though: Many Americans nowdays will not listen to dance music unless it's a watered-down commercial remix of a chart topping pop track that doesn't exceed over 130 bpm. The last thing Eurobeat music needs to do is sell-out by making remixes of American pop tracks to draw these types of people in because once you do that, you can never go back to anything original, or variate from the commercial sound they love to hear without losing all your sales.

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Post by zoupzuop2 » 09 Dec 2012, 18:49

Bonkers wrote: I do agree with you on one thing though: Many Americans nowdays will not listen to dance music unless it's a watered-down commercial remix of a chart topping pop track that doesn't exceed over 130 bpm. The last thing Eurobeat music needs to do is sell-out by making remixes of American pop tracks to draw these types of people in because once you do that, you can never go back to anything original, or variate from the commercial sound they love to hear without losing all your sales.
Dubstep is often 140, drumstep is often 150 to even 170. Most of the not-over-130-bpm tracks "topping the charts" is original and not even a remix in the first place. The very fact that Skrillex has EVER charted completely debunks this theory. (inb4 shitstorm about Skrillex.)

"These types"? Suddenly we're some sort of secret club now? Our shit doesn't stink (in an objectively verifiable way) or something?

I have nothing against you or Drnrg personally, but... these mindsets of the Eurobeat world are utterly and completely toxic, and disgust me with their ferocity, ignorance, and outright inaccuracy.
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Post by Bonkers » 09 Dec 2012, 21:11

zoupzuop2 wrote:
Bonkers wrote: I do agree with you on one thing though: Many Americans nowdays will not listen to dance music unless it's a watered-down commercial remix of a chart topping pop track that doesn't exceed over 130 bpm. The last thing Eurobeat music needs to do is sell-out by making remixes of American pop tracks to draw these types of people in because once you do that, you can never go back to anything original, or variate from the commercial sound they love to hear without losing all your sales.
Dubstep is often 140, drumstep is often 150 to even 170. Most of the not-over-130-bpm tracks "topping the charts" is original and not even a remix in the first place. The very fact that Skrillex has EVER charted completely debunks this theory. (inb4 shitstorm about Skrillex.)

"These types"? Suddenly we're some sort of secret club now? Our shit doesn't stink (in an objectively verifiable way) or something?

I have nothing against you or Drnrg personally, but... these mindsets of the Eurobeat world are utterly and completely toxic, and disgust me with their ferocity, ignorance, and outright inaccuracy.
This is what I am referring to:
http://www.amazon.com/Dance-Mix-Usa-Lou ... ce+mix+usa

This stuff is rinsed & recycled and played for the club masses, and they never hear any underground talent or sounds.

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Post by zoupzuop2 » 09 Dec 2012, 22:26

Bonkers wrote:
zoupzuop2 wrote:
Bonkers wrote: I do agree with you on one thing though: Many Americans nowdays will not listen to dance music unless it's a watered-down commercial remix of a chart topping pop track that doesn't exceed over 130 bpm. The last thing Eurobeat music needs to do is sell-out by making remixes of American pop tracks to draw these types of people in because once you do that, you can never go back to anything original, or variate from the commercial sound they love to hear without losing all your sales.
Dubstep is often 140, drumstep is often 150 to even 170. Most of the not-over-130-bpm tracks "topping the charts" is original and not even a remix in the first place. The very fact that Skrillex has EVER charted completely debunks this theory. (inb4 shitstorm about Skrillex.)

"These types"? Suddenly we're some sort of secret club now? Our shit doesn't stink (in an objectively verifiable way) or something?

I have nothing against you or Drnrg personally, but... these mindsets of the Eurobeat world are utterly and completely toxic, and disgust me with their ferocity, ignorance, and outright inaccuracy.
This is what I am referring to:
http://www.amazon.com/Dance-Mix-Usa-Lou ... ce+mix+usa

This stuff is rinsed & recycled and played for the club masses, and they never hear any underground talent or sounds.
Are you suggesting that the album is at-all popular? That link was literally the first time I had seen or heard of it, and I happen to occasionally enjoy this "rinsed and recycled" material every once in a while, so I should know, right?

Just because an album full of remixes of popular albums exists, doesn't mean it exists/is a bestseller.
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Post by Mindsweeper » 09 Dec 2012, 23:19

Eurodubeatstep

The new best genre

Instead of "wubwubwub" it goes "ah-ee-ah-ee-ah-ee-ah" and the sick drops light your fire!! (in the night.)



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Post by drnrg » 10 Dec 2012, 06:34

I DO happen to know a thing or two about the American Music Industry as someone who has shed blood sweat and tears in it, and your assumption that the people who read this forum don't is rude and wrong (as is a great deal of your post). ANY forum or community is served ill by posts such as yours when you get on a kick about American music (the fact that you listen to a couple of American rock groups does NOT clear your obvious bias and hatred). You have offended me greatly by assuming that the work I do on a day-to-day basis to keep myself fed, clothed and sheltered is, and I quote, "B.S".


I'm not taking it personal. I do not hate all American music. I actualy do ; exacatly like you said; love most; if not all American rock bands. You know which ones. Green Day, Kiss, Killers, Daughtry. ect..American Pop can also be great. Kelly Clarkson, Adam Lambert, Katy Perry ocasional Pink, Carley Rae Jepsen(actually Canadian right). Most of you are probobly surprised I even listen to these artists, but I do? It's not entirely American Pop artists I hate either either. I mentioned Rihanna(Barbados).

American dance pop; however, is a complete joke and they know it . Every song shamlessly has the same beat nowadys.That is where half of my post is actually aimed for.


I hapen to know a few people who know other people who know some American artists, and this is because I'm huge fan of American Rock bands,so I can comfirm a little of what I say.

Tru story:

You know Aerosmith(best American rock band(from Boston) just released a new album, right. Green Day(another American fav of mine) too. Both of thier espective lables advise them to include a song or two written by Ryan Tedder(One republic) Writes 70% of Pop music now adays(he's not even American?) Both bands declined, because ; they ,from the start, have written thier own material. I'm glad they did , because Mr. Tedder's songs all sound alike. MY point is, that this is where American music industry has pushed the limit. Why the hell would Aerosmith want to sing a song that sounds like One Republic when it's Steven Tyler and Joe Perry who write the material. It's a complete insult to the band, right?

@ zoup zuop2

You should concider yourself completely exemplified from my post because , 1. you mostly produce Eurobeat, 2. Your style caters mostly to Eurobeat ; which is a Japanese market. and three and most important; you havn't sold out your credibility to the American music Popular labels

You are heavy into the Music industry. I don't deny this at all, but you are not so deep that to know these are the kinds of tactics the American Music Indutsry resorts too to sell music. Point being. they sacrifice talent for sales. It most certainly is not happening a your current status , because you are not mainstream. That's Another reason why you shouldn't take my comments to heart. This is the main reason for the Indi lables becomming so popular in the states. So the artists have more freedom.

In closing, my post, perhaps was too general. I seldom proofread what I write,I should have stated that I aimed my post soley for the popular American music labels. Those are the ones you speak of that I hate and I don't deny it.

Put all my post into perspective and you see that if Eurobeat was to become mainstream; they would have to release songs on those popular labels, thus they would have to include or be entirely sung by the American pop stars of the moment. That would also exclude all our favourite Eurobeat artists and just like that . They are out of work.

This is my biggest concern when thinking of Eurobeat becomming Mainstream.


What I said about Advertising ,air TIMEect.. was completely out of line. They do work with the right gimmicks. Take that PSY song that for; Unfathomable reasons, became viral on youtube. This is a very special instance that the American industry just couldn't ignore. It had to go to number one(charts) or else they(AMI) lose thier credibilty with fans.

A no-name artists can also be an overnight sensation(Wether they have talent or not) if they agree with what Popular Record lables want) Change your sound, add in a cameo appearance, maybe even change your Music genre completely. This means The American Music Industry can either make you or break you if you don't play ball.

I have complete respect for you and all American and Non American music artists so long as you don't sellout. I can stop listening to forign artists just as easy, but they don't sell out as often as American artists do. These artists also usually are pop or dance with no real identitly as to what genre they want thier music to be? and the majoraty don't even write thier own material. I prefer Rock genre , because they almost always write thier own material.


Do your thing, put 100% into your writing producing and composing, advertising,but don't sell out your credibilty to sell records. Don't let them(Big wig music companies) write or produce the music for you, hence you lose your whole identity.


By the way, I also dabbled a little in (80's Freestyle, NRG dance music industry)Promoted, wrote lyrics even a few backup vocals. Groups like Barduex, Chapter One, Toppaz ect..)
A big American lable(won't mention name) wanted us to change our sound to Rap(Hip Hop) That Vanilla Ice, M.C Hammer crap that was comming out.. Once again; thier way or the highway. That's when I left the American music industry for good. So yes, my expirience with the BIG American Music Lables hasn't been a favorable one.

Hopefully this gives a better understanding of the aspects that I hate about American Music Industry.

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Post by zoupzuop2 » 10 Dec 2012, 08:40

...thank you, Drnrg, for not taking that personally. My initial response was fueled by a great deal of frustration and, while I do think I made solid points, I reacted a bit too strongly to your post either way. Please accept my apologies for the tone of that response, I care a great deal for the music I love regardless of country-of-origin, not just Eurobeat so I can get riled up a bit easily these days (finishing final projects for this semester as well as the sequel to My Life as a Pixel V1 might also be contributing!), but it's not an excuse for my lashing out so harshly.

That said, I still have some points of rebuttal to your previous post.
drnrg wrote: I'm not taking it personal. I do not hate all American music. I actualy do ; exacatly like you said; love most; if not all American rock bands. You know which ones. Green Day, Kiss, Killers, Daughtry. ect..American Pop can also be great. Kelly Clarkson, Adam Lambert, Katy Perry ocasional Pink, Carley Rae Jepsen(actually Canadian right). Most of you are probobly surprised I even listen to these artists, but I do? It's not entirely American Pop artists I hate either either. I mentioned Rihanna(Barbados).
I actually had no idea she was from Barbados. Ten points from Odyssey-dor.
drnrg wrote:American dance pop; however, is a complete joke and they know it . Every song shamlessly has the same beat nowadays. That is where half of my post is actually aimed for.
Of American Dance Pop, this may be true (if we're focusing more on the pop segment of it). However, this simply cannot be levied against the EDM world fronted by mau5trap, OWSLA, Never Say Die and what have you. The variations of rhythms between these styles are sufficiently varied both within and between subgenres (this will draw ire, but... some dubstep has multiple time signatures and beats, and has different time signatures and beats from drumstep [drum & bass with dubstep influence], which is still different from moombahton, or from neurofunk, or from glitch-hop, or from trap, etc), and already vastly outnumbers Eurobeat's (4/4, no shuffle, 140-170 bpm in most cases). Believe it or not, producers such as Zedd (classically trained pianist), Porter Robinson (formerly produced hands-up as "Ekowraith"), and even Skrillex (former emo band frontman/singer before he had to have surgery on his throat, piano player, guitar player) actually DO have some talent and try to make interesting and compelling music with variety, even if not in the same ways some Eurobeat fans would appreciate it.

Think of their "wubs" in a similar manner to our brass riffs, if you will— a casual listener would blow them off as all the same ("generic wubs"/"generic flailing brass", as one non-fan of mine may paraphrase!), but a fan who knows the style(s) intimately can tell you how each one is different in their own way. Both actually DO take talent and creativity to create and produce in a way that is compelling and interesting, and there are frankly enough lazily-generated Eurobeat songs in the world to where I can say it's equally guilty of generic/"sameface" production. (Any genre that has the song "I'm Superstar" in it CAN'T be perfect... this, from a Futura fan!!!)

I have more on this matter, but it better addresses points you make below.
drnrg wrote:@ zoup zuop2
You should concider yourself completely exemplified from my post because , 1. you mostly produce Eurobeat, 2. Your style caters mostly to Eurobeat ; which is a Japanese market. and three and most important; you havn't sold out your credibility to the American music Popular labels
This is somewhat true, but most of my buying audience has actually been from the USA, statistically speaking. I've also made other genres, and really wouldn't mind working with folks at OWSLA (if not for the fact that I like what they do with EDM, then for the fact that they're known to be VERY humble and fun to be around and work with). Not really a rebuttal, but... I'unno.
drnrg wrote:You are heavy into the Music industry. I don't deny this at all, but you are not so deep that to know these are the kinds of tactics the American Music Indutsry resorts too to sell music. Point being. they sacrifice talent for sales. It most certainly is not happening a your current status , because you are not mainstream. That's Another reason why you shouldn't take my comments to heart. This is the main reason for the Indi lables becomming so popular in the states. So the artists have more freedom.
I actually know a couple of the tricks. If I'm not mistaken, the practice of "payola" from labels to radio stations is still quite common?

And, sadly, I have hit a small level of mainstream— my Youtube channel has 4 million views, of which one original song of mine, "Discord", has 1 million of those (and counting), and I've shown up under my "Eurobeat Brony" alias in Rolling Stone. (You will probably NOT like the remix of my song they chose to post unless you're really into KOAN Sound/Pendulum).

Additionally, most independent labels are only so by name— they'll often have a big-label distributor, or still be neatly under the thumb of a biggie like Warner or Universal. (Oddly enough, while still being distributed through Warner, OWSLA and Mau5trap have levels of creative freedom that are damned near unheard of in the industry, and I heavily doubt their status as "indie".) The contracts indie labels use are also very often copy-pasted directly from larger labels, and can still have precisely the same soul-crushing contracts contained within. (If I'm not mistaken, it's usually in the clause where the label can request multiple albums of X-number-of-songs within a single calendar year, which often drives bands/artists to seek outside help, often called "uncontrolled songs" because the artist(s) themself/themselves do not have direct creative control of it. This tends to happen around album 3 of your average band's career.) "Indie" is a title to be used with caution— truly independent labels do still exist but they're a lot harder to find than we think. True freedom lies in the DIY approach, though this very seldom takes off. (Usually the next big step in an artist's career that's done the DIY approach is to use the dedicated resources of... a larger label.)
drnrg wrote:Put all my post into perspective and you see that if Eurobeat was to become mainstream; they would have to release songs on those popular labels, thus they would have to include or be entirely sung by the American pop stars of the moment. That would also exclude all our favourite Eurobeat artists and just like that . They are out of work.
They're already releasing through Avex. Avex is (or at least was) huge. Plus, who ever said they would all have to be sung by the pop stars of the moment? Why can't it be the people who have already been making this stuff in the first place, marketed to a different country? Even if it was an American artist singing on it specifically, wouldn't the writers and producers still have their jobs? (This is obviously NOT ideal if new talent replaced old talent instead of added to it, that much we agree on. But... who says these vocalists AREN'T added to the roster instead of kicking the old one out? There are plenty of vocalists in the Eurobeat world who could still have appeal outside of the Eurobeat genre.)
drnrg wrote:A no-name artists can also be an overnight sensation(Wether they have talent or not) if they agree with what Popular Record lables want) Change your sound, add in a cameo appearance, maybe even change your Music genre completely. This means The American Music Industry can either make you or break you if you don't play ball.
This part is a bit strange, because I know plenty of people who got signed BECAUSE of their popularity (as in, popularity came before the signing, not vice versa). Hell, even Bieber... as begrudgingly as I admit it, he got popular through Youtube BEFORE being picked up by Ludacris. (The fact that Bieber later became an entitled prick and insulted Zedd, a far better musician than he will EVER be, is another story. I have a couple of reasons I legitimately dislike Bieber, or so I like to think.)
And, uh... Eurobeat is in NO position to accuse others of "changing according to a label's desires", when we're one of the strongest examples of precisely that. Hell, our most popular song was radically altered into what it is BECAUSE of Avex's request to change the singer! Avex makes requests for changes VERY very often (two of my songs were subject to such!), about on the same level as Warner or Universal or Disney might. Our Eurobeat artists and singers and whatnot are under nearly identical varieties of scrutiny.

This next part is a bit long, so tl;dr until the next quote: I agree with you on the notion of changing someone's sound upon signing being a bad move.
While I do agree that a label that signs an artist for their unique sound, only to demand they change it later, is batshit stupid. However, I can see their reasoning, and it lays within the vocabulary of an old Warner contract (special thanks to the book "Confessions of a Record Producer" by Moses Avalon) :
Warner Contract wrote:"Each such master shall be subject to COMPANY's approval as commercially satisfactory for the manufacture and sale of records."
The record company wants to make sure that the thousands (or millions) of dollars they invested in helping you make your record (through the form of an advance) will be compensated so they can pay their employees that month. They want to be sure that what they're selling of yours will, in fact, sell and start to earn back money on the debt they've accrued. (In rare cases, these advances ARE recompensated; rarer still— almost exclusively for platinum-sellers— these advances are compensated AND profited upon.) So if they don't think that Yoko Ono scream in the middle of a piano ballad will put food on their kids' tables (even if it is fine French gourmet, if we're going with a "biggie" in this instance), they'll ask for its removal.

Of course, the problem here is that it defies the very point of signing the act in the first place. If you booked him because he does great metal, and suddenly you want him to croon like Bublé or Sinatra, that's bloody stupid and counterproductive. I notice that even some of the "biggies" are letting their acts get pretty radical with song content and sound design, so perhaps this notion is weakening a tad.
drnrg wrote:I have complete respect for you and all American and Non American music artists so long as you don't sellout. I can stop listening to forign artists just as easy, but they don't sell out as often as American artists do. These artists also usually are pop or dance with no real identitly as to what genre they want thier music to be? and the majoraty don't even write thier own material. I prefer Rock genre , because they almost always write thier own material.
How on earth do foreign artists not "sell out as often"? Most of what we're listening to as Eurobeat fans is from Avex or Farm or even Warner itself... big(-ish) record labels with contracts and staff-writers! What can we say of the Eurobeat labels, then, who can barely publish anything from their libraries without Avex's concern? If anything, the Eurobeat labels, by what seems to be your definition of "selling out", have sold not only "out", but sold more than they've got! They're more dependent on their parent label than most electronic acts I know. This isn't inherently a bad thing, but the way it's been handled in the Eurobeat context has been elaborated on for eons, little of it in a positive light.

As well, it's generally true that rock-specific acts DO tend to write their own material. However... how sure are you (hell, how sure am I?) that those artists you mentioned DID, in fact, write all their material? What if one of those songs had an additional writer? What if one of those had someone who didn't have a vocal or instrumental talent, but could compose and write lyrics like nobody's business? Would that even be so wrong, if the act still by-and-large does mostly their own material? I mean, if the band played mostly "uncontrolled" material for there career, that'd be grounds for discussion of their own creativity, but why is it so bad when one or two of the songs are written by someone who ISN'T exhausted from weeks of touring and recording?
By the way, I also dabbled a little in (80's Freestyle, NRG dance music industry)Promoted, wrote lyrics even a few backup vocals. Groups like Barduex, Chapter One, Toppaz ect..)
A big American lable(won't mention name) wanted us to change our sound to Rap(Hip Hop) That Vanilla Ice, M.C Hammer crap that was comming out.. Once again; thier way or the highway. That's when I left the American music industry for good. So yes, my expirience with the BIG American Music Lables hasn't been a favorable one.
I had absolutely no idea that you were involved in the music industry. My sincerest apologies for any assumptions I may have made to the contrary.
drnrg wrote:Hopefully this gives a better understanding of the aspects that I hate about American Music Industry.
It does indeed, and it did in fact open my eyes to your understanding of the music world. However, there are still some problematic patterns in your thought process, understandable as they may be from the burn you got from your label experience, that are just not accurate to the existing scene, or at the very lest, make assumptions about quality that simply cannot be objectively verified.

I would urge you to consider how some of the acts you dislike might actually still have some talent after all— having worked with pitch-correction software myself, it can't necessarily fix a tone-deaf vocal session, for instance— or that just because the style isn't to your liking doesn't mean that it's garbage by default. I absolutely loathed dubstep... until I gave it a couple of listens, on my own, from both a "fan"/listener perspective and a producer perspective. What started as mere appreciation grew into actually quite a joy with that most detested genre, because I gave it a chance to surprise me.

Don't forget, Eurobeat could very well have been in that position to Japanese fans of Italo Disco. I could even see it now:

"UGH! These Italo Disco guys are selling out to TECHNO of all things... TECHNO AND HOUSE! And what's with these disgusting guitars they've added, why would they EVER want to sound like a rock act? They're just peddling sped-up, keyword-laden, formulaic rehashes instead of the genre I love and recognize as high-quality. Hell, most of the vocalists aren't even the writers or producers... they're bringing in outside talent! Yuck."
A lot's changed in the decade and a half I've been here.
Full-time eurobeat producer, full-time musician, part-time Vtuber. #JessaIsReal2021
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drnrg
Eurobeat Guru
Posts: 6957
Joined: 17 May 2005, 07:18
Location: searching for missing Eurogrooves trax

Post by drnrg » 11 Dec 2012, 09:30

This last post here will not be too much rebuttle, much more kinda agreeing to some points you made as I apply them to Eurobeat.


zoupzuop2
Of American Dance Pop, this may be true (if we're focusing more on the pop segment of it).
This is exactly the one I'm speaking off. I have to admit that I'm a bit Ignorant to the EDM world you mentioned. As I'm not sure what the initials stand for? Aside from the rest; I have heard the dub step style of Skrillex and it's not my cup of tea. One pop song that I absolutely love from Madonna this year was "Gimmi All Ur Love" that had asome dubstep which firtted quite nice and yes Niki and Mia also rap and it still doesn't ruin the song.

zoupzuop2
Think of their "wubs" in a similar manner to our brass riffs, if you will— a casual listener would blow them off as all the same ("generic wubs"/"generic flailing brass", as one non-fan of mine may paraphrase!), but a fan who knows the style(s) intimately can tell you how each one is different in their own way.
I'm taking your word on this statemanet. Again not familiar with the EDM world, but I hear the same comments about Eurobeat all the TIME and I can seriously pinpoint all the key differences in Eurobeat riffs. Even among HRG Attack; which many accuse of rehashing. Seriously it's only about 1/100 songs that almost identically sound the same and not as often as people say.

zoupzuop2I actually know a couple of the tricks. If I'm not mistaken, the practice of "payola" from labels to radio stations is still quite common?

The reason I didn't touch on the "payola" issue is; and you probly all ready guessed, because it's not always just to saturate the air-waves. SomeTIMES bands; even rock bands' managers have to resort to "payola" to get "AirTIME" among Bieber, Flo-Rida ect... "Payola" as a tactic might not always be bad, but infact salvage your career.

zoupzuop2
Additionally, most independent labels are only so by name— they'll often have a big-label distributor, or still be neatly under the thumb of a biggie like Warner or Universal. (Oddly enough, while still being distributed through Warner, OWSLA and Mau5trap have levels of creative freedom that are damned near unheard of in the industry, and I heavily doubt their status as "indie".) The contracts indie labels use are also very often copy-pasted directly from larger labels, and can still have precisely the same soul-crushing contracts contained within. (If I'm not mistaken, it's usually in the clause where the label can request multiple albums of X-number-of-songs within a single calendar year, which often drives bands/artists to seek outside help, often called "uncontrolled songs" because the artist(s) themself/themselves do not have direct creative control of it. This tends to happen around album 3 of your average band's career.) "Indie" is a title to be used with caution— truly independent labels do still exist but they're a lot harder to find than we think. True freedom lies in the DIY approach, though this very seldom takes off. (Usually the next big step in an artist's career that's done the DIY approach is to use the dedicated resources of... a larger label.)
This is true. However they usually sign up once one of thier singles has become popular enough to be concidered TOP 40. Take Foster The People. Thier album Torches wasn't given much air paly(if any) untill Pumped Up Kicks hit top 40. It also charted in Rock, Alt Rock, Adult and Dance charts. The group is now signed to Warner(I could be wrong) Fans are still enjoying thier latest effort the way the band intenede it to be. The change in thier sound; which is bound to happen will refclect in thier next releases. The pressure you speak of will more than likely take a toll on thier material. They signed 3-4 record deal; if I'm not mistaken. Warner is one of those lables I speak of who will force you to sound like Bieber in order to sell records. My gues; Foster the people will sound like Owl City on thier next cd.

My advise when and if the opportunity would rise is to stay away from Warner or have a good lawyer when you sign your contract.


zoupzuop2
They're already releasing through Avex. Avex is (or at least was) huge. Plus, who ever said they would all have to be sung by the pop stars of the moment? Why can't it be the people who have already been making this stuff in the first place, marketed to a different country? Even if it was an American artist singing on it specifically, wouldn't the writers and producers still have their jobs? (This is obviously NOT ideal if new talent replaced old talent instead of added to it, that much we agree on. But... who says these vocalists AREN'T added to the roster instead of kicking the old one out? There are plenty of vocalists in the Eurobeat world who could still have appeal outside of the Eurobeat genre.)
True and you know I have no love for AVEX. and yes , since they are big company; could ,infact deal with the Warner and Universals of the U.S. and keep the Eurobeat artist vocals in tact, however, those big American lables also have a huge ego. If Eurobeat would hit big, Top 40, whatever you concider Big TIME, there is no doubt in my mind that the Chris Browns and Ke$has of POp would get in line to sing the next Eurobeat hit or worse grab one from the vaults and cover it. and that's a scary thought. I mean could you really swallow a "Night Of Fire" cover sung by Adam Levine. I like Maroon 5 ,myself but not on Eurobeat. Furthermore they most definately would change the rather charming accent and Engrish of Eurobeat vocals. I don't think Americans are ready for it. The Accents, ok , but the "Engrish"and I as a fan would miss that. I also fear that Most Americans would have a hard TIME getting used to Eurobeat vocals.Just like I can't get used to the "Urban" dance vocals of American artists. Thus being the reason AVEX and BIG Label name might change them.

I'm telling you man, I think of everything I like about Eurobeat before going on my "GOD forbid Eurobeat becomes Mainstream in the U.S." rants.

zoupzuop2
How on earth do foreign artists not "sell out as often"? Most of what we're listening to as Eurobeat fans is from Avex or Farm or even Warner itself... big(-ish) record labels with contracts and staff-writers! What can we say of the Eurobeat labels, then, who can barely publish anything from their libraries without Avex's concern? If anything, the Eurobeat labels, by what seems to be your definition of "selling out", have sold not only "out", but sold more than they've got! They're more dependent on their parent label than most electronic acts I know. This isn't inherently a bad thing, but the way it's been handled in the Eurobeat context has been elaborated on for eons, little of it in a positive light.


This is another issue that I'm still not sure how it works. Why some Lables like Saifam and HRG Attack can relase thier whole catalog while others like TIME and DELTA get punished on a regular basis. Still others like ABeatC and SCP are never avaliable. You know how long I've been waiting for a (SCP)Thomas Lee- Midnight(Xtended) to show up or High Level- Take My TIME (extended)? Is it that HRG sold out (payola) to AVEX to release thier catalog or is it that TIME sold out thier entire catalog to AVEX for a space on SEB or what? This has always been a dirty side of music business to me. Even Rock bands like KISS have done it to former ex members. Peter Chris can never perforn his song; "Beth" which he wrote entirely and even appeared on his own solo album, because it was produced when he perfomed under the KISS name, which soley belongs to Paul & Gene. This is the reason the "Catman" and "Space Ace" personas can be worn by any musician that Paul or Gene decide. Dirty dirty tactics. I still love Kiss though, Paul and Gene are my favs :D

I guess this applies to Eurobeat as well. Why different musicians could sing under different aliases while at a certain lable. I'm not complaining at all. I found it rather charming and giving new life to retired aliases. EX: Francis Cooper is better than ever now. I'm just saying it applies to the discussion.t

Anyway, in my post I was mostly refering to English and other European acts Rock acts of the 80s. That why thier sound almost always remains the same throughout thier career. I respect that as opposed to The Snoop Dogs who sarted out hard core gangsta rap and now apear on a regular basis in Katy Perry songs. It just seems ridiculous from all sides. But ,I guess the guys gotta eat.

zoupzuop2As well, it's generally true that rock-specific acts DO tend to write their own material. However... how sure are you (hell, how sure am I?) that those artists you mentioned DID, in fact, write all their material? What if one of those songs had an additional writer? What if one of those had someone who didn't have a vocal or instrumental talent, but could compose and write lyrics like nobody's business? Would that even be so wrong, if the act still by-and-large does mostly their own material? I mean, if the band played mostly "uncontrolled" material for there career, that'd be grounds for discussion of their own creativity, but why is it so bad when one or two of the songs are written by someone who ISN'T exhausted from weeks of touring and recording?

Being realistic here; I can't say I'm 100% sure. This I take by faith on what appears on alum credits or what Musicians ,themselves say. SomeTIMES additional writers do appear, but they kinda stick to the gebre in question. EX: Ric Ocasek(The Cars) co-writing songs on No Doubt album or Billy Korgan(Smashing Pumpkins) co writing for Ric Ocasek solo album.

but I ask myself, if it was common practice for bands or record labels to misinform us(Fans)on the credits space on the albums and what not about who wrote, produced ect..the music, then why wouldn't a HUGE POP name like Kelly Clarkson or Micheal Jackson; who rely on material written for them to perform, say they wrote thier own material in order to appear more talented? I'm pretty sure that Lables havn't sunk that low to lie about that? besides if found out, they (Artists) would lose thier credilbilty with the fans and once that's gone; thier finished.

Maybe you concider me a bit naive, but I choose to belive the bands have some credibilty. Besides I can tell the style of my favourite bands. For instance I would know if Ryan Tedder(sorry to pick on Mr. Tedder so much. I say this, in case he has any fans on this forum?) wrote a song for Green Day, just because his style alone sounds so alike in the bass tones. I pinpointed his style when he wrote for Kelly Clarkson, Beyonce, even Ryan Starr and I was 100% right.

SomeTIMES it's not always a bad thing to have others write for you. I apply this mainly to Eurobeat. Take when Live Music Studio(HRG Attack) wrote on TIME records. Great sound. Revamped thier synth riffs and I dare say thier introductions using Techno and house effects gave the label a fresh sound. I admit it. It worked like magic.

zoupzuop2I would urge you to consider how some of the acts you dislike might actually still have some talent after all— having worked with pitch-correction software myself, it can't necessarily fix a tone-deaf vocal session, for instance— or that just because the style isn't to your liking doesn't mean that it's garbage by default. I absolutely loathed dubstep... until I gave it a couple of listens, on my own, from both a "fan"/listener perspective and a producer perspective. What started as mere appreciation grew into actually quite a joy with that most detested genre, because I gave it a chance to surprise me

I have ; infact recieved mainstream pop with more of an "Open Arns" attitude. What's funny, is that i'll start likeing a cetain Cher Lloyd, Adele or Carley Rae Jepsen song, only to find out they aren't even American to begin with. They are Enlish and Canadian(Respectively); whome I've always loved since the 70's. It's probly a hard etched preference that's deep in my listening pleasures.I do like a little Katy Perry , but respect Taylor Swift and Pink, because they write most of thier own material. I still can't get used to the Urban vocals of Ne-Yo, Flo-Rida, ect.. I just can't.

You notice I've laide off the whole "Auto-Tuned" issue I used to rant about a few years back, because I know Eurobeat uses or has used in past. Sergio Dall Ora used it when he sang under Arena 69 alias.

Believe it or not; one of my fav American pop artists ; Kelly Clarkson has also admited to use auto tune in the past at request of record company.
She says she didn't want to, but really had no choice being under contract and all. It's no longer an issue with the fans either. To tell you the truth, I'm pretty sure the majoraty of Big record lables require thier acts to go "Auto-Tune"

I guess the thing I definately won't accept is too many songs that sound the shamelessly sound same in the pop charts. Again what most would say about Eurobeat, right.

It's in the EAR of the beholde, I guess.

and please my p.c felt like turing your quotes into bold texts. Sorry :x

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