Super Eurobeat 227

the_ditz · Post by **the_ditz** » 21 Jan 2014, 23:43

Yep, exactly what my wise friend above said. Nothing more to add

Lebon14 · Post by **Lebon14** » 22 Jan 2014, 06:35

Ex, what I meant isn't that. Well, maybe I wasn't clear enough. I understand your point; you don't make a song deliberately longer "just because". However, what I meant is, is that SCP clearly wrote "Bigga Boom" "extended in mind". However, for some reason, only a radio edit was made available (and heavily brickwalled) on SEB 207. What I meant is, when a song is written and produced to be 5min, why not release it that way, the way the author intended it to be? Unless SCP and Go Go's Music confirm us that they write in Radio length these days, I'm going to believe that Avex deliberately cuts the tracks from their full versions.

EDIT

However, if they indeed write radio, it'd really like them to think extended instead. I feel like, when it's so short, that it misses something and I don't like it. An ideal length for me is 4:30 to 5:30. Over that, it's a bonus.

drnrg · Post by **drnrg** » 22 Jan 2014, 21:04

eXtaticus,

I;for example, write all my songs to fit into radio length - but artists like, say David Dima, probably write his with the extended format in mind. Most of Morris Capaldi's instrumentals are radio-length - but the Super Eurobeat "extended" versions of the songs are longer, and almost all feature the exact same breakdown pattern. It depends on how the producer originally intends the song to be; if they've written a four-minute song, it should stay within four minutes. If they've written a five-and-a-half-minute epic, then it should stay that length.

It's no use saying to a producer "magic up another minute and a half of this song plz", just like it's no use saying "eww this song is too long cut it down plz". At the end of the day, producers will write what they want to, (and, to a certain extent, what avex wants them to) and I believe that they should be allowed to keep their tracks as-is.

In your defense; I will add that there have been some instances that go way back into the 80's where Italo dance songs where as short as a radio edit with no other version avaliable but that one. (TRD1005)Karina- Hidi-Ho..Dance With Dolly is 4:18. anotherone is (HE143) Baby Baby- Sex Success. That one is barely 4:00. Those were concidered the extendeds.They were also other rare exception, but far and few. Another instance is HRG Attack during the 170s and 180s. All thier songs were radio edits or ;in other words, SEB ready. They also did this so AVEX wouldn't ask them to shorten thier songs. Later on they extended some of those songs strictly for the fans.

I'm with Lebon in the whole extended discussion. We are both from very different eras of Eurobeat and his reasons are similar to mine for prefering extenededs v.s. SEB edits. Not to say all SEB edits are dismall. DELTA; when Newfield was in charge, did some classic award winning SEB edits.

In the end the whole extended gripe is really just with SCP and GoGos. They are the biggest offenders. I know they can make some amazing extendeds when they want to,so I still believe they have extendeds for All; if not, at least the magorarty, of thier songs somewhere in the vaults and each TIME they release one; it sounds way better than the edit. So I just hope SCP brings on those extendeds whereever they may be. The faster the better.

I understand what some say about stating that as long as the song sounds complete; then you are content. I have already mentioned that DELTA and HRG's edits were pretty damn good, becuase they almost always featured some kind of mini break. For me that mid break(the part where d.js would mix in the the next song) is what singles out Italo/Eurobeat from the rest of the music, but I have only felt that sense of content with SCPs current edits with a couple of songs. This means that I didn't even realize they were 4:00 mins until a read the runtime of each track. a couple of these would be Jay Lehr- Fallin' In Love Again and Scream Team- Wacky Wacky O. Those two; in particular, gave me that sense of a complete journey Ditz was talking about. Bigga Boom was actually one of those, but now that I heard the extended; I like it even more than the edit.

I guess Dave Rodgers sums up my feelings about extendeds best with the 8;00 min version of Lucky Man. I can listen to that one repeatedly without getting bored.

#Infinity · Post by **#Infinity** » 23 Jan 2014, 00:14

Even if there are small merits to extending a track by one minute, it really doesn't justify wasting a precious slot on the CD, considering the wait in-between SEB albums. I would feel morbidly alienated if SCP routinely decided to squander half of their effort elongating their old songs without really adding anything materially new to the tracks. It's the same type of cheap and easy dodge from when Saifam's material consisted of nothing but cookie cutter covers from their other sub-labels. These types of extensions belong online or on special releases, not the official Super Eurobeat canon.

Lebon14 · Post by **Lebon14** » 23 Jan 2014, 02:37

#Infinity wrote:Even if there are small merits to extending a track by one minute, it really doesn't justify wasting a precious slot on the CD, considering the wait in-between SEB albums. I would feel morbidly alienated if SCP routinely decided to squander half of their effort elongating their old songs without really adding anything materially new to the tracks. It's the same type of cheap and easy dodge from when Saifam's material consisted of nothing but cookie cutter covers from their other sub-labels. These types of extensions belong online or on special releases, not the official Super Eurobeat canon.

Again, off the point. The song is already 5 minutes. My thing is why would you censor 1 minute off of the song? You wrote it and it gave 5 minutes. Why would you cut it to 4 or less? However, I would agree that making longer on purpose would probably lead to disappointment.

The Saifam sub-label argument isn't argument about extended mixes. That's simply a "Huh, I don't have anything written yet. Fudge. Ye-ye-ye-yes, the back catalog! Let's see...*looks around* Sounds like Eurobeat enough. *sends track to Avex*" type of thing.

Another thing, you are "marketing" a CD with an header saying "Everlasting Dance Trax Super Eurobeat Extended Version" then you proceed of putting tracks that have been edited from their original masters "just because". Then somebody buys the CD and expect full versions of all the tracks mentionned on the tracklist. Then later finds out that one or multiple tracks have longer versions of them. I would personally feel ripped off as I am being fed radio edits as extended versions when I expect the later.

Oh and, I'm pretty sure Bigga Boom was written to be 5 minutes and edited afterward.

These days, SEB is pretty slow. There isn't enough fans to justify a huge output of tracks to justify multiple CDs or more than 15 extended tracks to be honest. And if Avex comes in and say "technical limitation", I call BS. You can put 79 minutes 56 seconds on a CD EXACTLY (80min is rounded). SEB226 is 72:07. There's roughly 7 minutes left. Enough to fit all their tracks in their uncut glory. If all SCP and GGM songs are cuts from their masters, and put them to 5min each, the CD would length 74:30.

*sigh*

para_rigby · Post by **para_rigby** » 23 Jan 2014, 03:01

So here is my opinion...

Having heard extended versions after hearing the SEB edits, rarely do the producers really do anything in the extended versions that really jump out and wow you (not all, but most). Delta was very guilty of having 6 minutes + songs that did not add anything to the song so I can get along with SEB edits without problem. Maybe it is a tactical decision on the part of the mastering for the compilation to edit some songs down for reasons beyond me.

Extends don't really bring that much new to the table. That is why I have always been in favour of the 18 track format. You get the song done within the normal 3:50-4:30 mark. However, there are songs on occasion that have sweet spots cut out for the edit (friggin' awesome guitar solo for Pilot is the Hero!!). Like I said, these are few and far between.

The only reason I care to get extended versions are when the songs were only put in megamixes (hence, the majority of Euromach songs...). I would buy up SCP's Euromach catalog in the heartbeat since there is not a SEB edit for it.

Bonkers · Post by **Bonkers** » 23 Jan 2014, 04:18

drnrg · Post by **drnrg** » 23 Jan 2014, 05:06

para_rigby

Extends don't really bring that much new to the table.

I wasn't gonna add anything else to this topic, but that really blew my mind. Its a harsh generalization. I could name 100s of extendeds that bring something new to the table. Since you didnt really give any examples; I'm still not sure if you mean that the extendeds don't all try out enough new ideas for you, or if you mean the song itself doesn't sound any different to you in Extended v.s edit?

I'm not going to say that all extended are great. For example; if a song is already weak, then an extended really isn't going to help it at all.

What I would like to see is someone give an example of where an extended version is inferior or better yet , ruins the song and explain why.

There's got to be a better example than just Saifam's cut & paste Boom Boom Beat era.

para_rigby

The only reason I care to get extended versions are when the songs were only put in megamixes (hence, the majority of Euromach songs...). I would buy up SCP's Euromach catalog in the heartbeat since there is not a SEB edit for it.

You just summed it up. In the end you cravetoo the extendeds.

QUESTION?
Who here would go grab the extended of ; say Domino's new track, Bad Girl if they new it was avaliable? How about "Samuria Blue"? I know alot of you would jump at an extended version of Kaio's "Sunlight" if SCP released it. I know I would and would probobly like it more. So I rest my case.

Mindsweeper · Post by **Mindsweeper** » 23 Jan 2014, 06:54

Okay guys get ready to throw shoes at me!

Sometimes I don't even listen to entire extends. I hear it cycle through the riff-verse-verse-chorus two or three times and then my goldfish attention span peters out, unless it really does something unusual.

For example, DDD Inital D (though I know some people here aren't a big fan of it) has a bit at around three minutes in where the drum-machine beats stop and everything calms down. I love it when energetic music kicks back for a sec and gives you a moment to breathe.

Now, despite not having the attention span to sit through a lot of extends, I still like to have them because it gives DJs more material for mixing.

Similarly, I can't sit through the boring DJ-friendly intros and outros of a lot of dance music, but I understand why they exist and if I enjoy the song enough I'll just fast forward through them.

the_ditz · Post by **the_ditz** » 23 Jan 2014, 08:47

Oh crap.... I just fell in my time machine and ended up in a thread from a year ago... or wait, is it two years ago... or three years ago??

I just can't be sure because the same conversations seem to happen here over and over and over again. It's tiring people... you'll never agree so quit trying to force it.

DarkSky · Post by **DarkSky** » 23 Jan 2014, 09:39

the_ditz wrote:Oh crap.... I just fell in my time machine and ended up in a thread from a year ago... or wait, is it two years ago... or three years ago??

I just can't be sure because the same conversations seem to happen here over and over and over again. It's tiring people... you'll never agree so quit trying to force it.

They have to have something to talk about. As there's no Eurobeat news, these old things come up all the time. Indeed. They will never agree.

#Infinity · Post by **#Infinity** » 23 Jan 2014, 16:33

Lebon14 wrote:
#Infinity wrote:Even if there are small merits to extending a track by one minute, it really doesn't justify wasting a precious slot on the CD, considering the wait in-between SEB albums. I would feel morbidly alienated if SCP routinely decided to squander half of their effort elongating their old songs without really adding anything materially new to the tracks. It's the same type of cheap and easy dodge from when Saifam's material consisted of nothing but cookie cutter covers from their other sub-labels. These types of extensions belong online or on special releases, not the official Super Eurobeat canon.
Again, off the point. The song is already 5 minutes. My thing is why would you censor 1 minute off of the song? You wrote it and it gave 5 minutes. Why would you cut it to 4 or less? However, I would agree that making longer on purpose would probably lead to disappointment.

The Saifam sub-label argument isn't argument about extended mixes. That's simply a "Huh, I don't have anything written yet. Fudge. Ye-ye-ye-yes, the back catalog! Let's see...*looks around* Sounds like Eurobeat enough. *sends track to Avex*" type of thing.

Another thing, you are "marketing" a CD with an header saying "Everlasting Dance Trax Super Eurobeat Extended Version" then you proceed of putting tracks that have been edited from their original masters "just because". Then somebody buys the CD and expect full versions of all the tracks mentionned on the tracklist. Then later finds out that one or multiple tracks have longer versions of them. I would personally feel ripped off as I am being fed radio edits as extended versions when I expect the later.

Oh and, I'm pretty sure Bigga Boom was written to be 5 minutes and edited afterward.

I always thought Jorge claimed SCP was deliberately producing their tracks to be about 4 minutes long or at the very least requesting their songs to be shorter. Even now, most of their music leans on the shorter side of things.

But even if the song is already 5 minutes, then that only makes the inclusion of the original extended version seem even lazier. That pretty much means SCP can completely stop producing music, and yet they'll still be covered for several albums more just because Avex uses the 5-minute versions of songs of tracks that were previously 4-minutes.

At the heart of this debate though, do you really want a full version of an old track or a completely new and original song? You're acting as if shortening a song by 1 minute, even while retaining a solidly fluent structure, completely destroys it and makes it practically not worth listening to. Granted, I never said releasing the extended version of an old song is pointless, but I just think it seems out-of-place and unnecessary on a compilation that generally gives us brand new music in an era when far less eurobeat is being produced than ever.

the_ditz · Post by **the_ditz** » 23 Jan 2014, 21:23

I don't think they were asking for the unreleased extended versions (if they all exist) to be released on future SEB albums - they were merely complaining that songs were edited for SEB in the first place.

Lebon14 · Post by **Lebon14** » 23 Jan 2014, 23:50

#Infinity wrote:At the heart of this debate though, do you really want a full version of an old track or a completely new and original song? You're acting as if shortening a song by 1 minute, even while retaining a solidly fluent structure, completely destroys it and makes it practically not worth listening to. Granted, I never said releasing the extended version of an old song is pointless, but I just think it seems out-of-place and unnecessary on a compilation that generally gives us brand new music in an era when far less eurobeat is being produced than ever.

What?! That's not what I mean. I meant...

the_ditz wrote:I don't think they were asking for the unreleased extended versions (if they all exist) to be released on future SEB albums - they were merely complaining that songs were edited for SEB in the first place.

You got it, sir.

Bonkers · Post by **Bonkers** » 23 Jan 2014, 23:58

Mindsweeper wrote:
Similarly, I can't sit through the boring DJ-friendly intros and outros of a lot of dance music

Which is why CDs should come DJ mixed to begin with, so if you want the extended, you can buy it elsewhere (vinyl, download site)

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