Wikipedia 'Eurobeat' entry

[UQ100]

Bottom line is that hi nrg descended from orchestral arrangements of 70-s disco,that's why it requires sounds to have more acoustic nature as compared to techno that moves as far away from anything resembling acoustic instrument as possible. You still edit the sounds and make them more interesting, it's just that sound world of techno is very different from the one of hi nrg. Purest hi nrg was made in the 80-s,because back then their sound was unblended with techno.

OK, I get what you mean, I hadn't really thought about it but for sure the sounds in Hi-NRG are more closely related to familiar acoustic instruments than techno.

Whether that's because of relationships with disco, I don't know. To be fair, my knowledge of the early years is a bit vague. I know that Eartha Kitt's "I Need a Man" had "real" drums, bass and rhythm guitar but Stock Aitken Waterman's early Hi-NRG moved onto sequencing. My historical awareness of Italo-Disco kinda starts with Den Harrow too.

JD series are fully digital, they are great for anything hi nrg.

Yep, yep. Do you think that today the same sound can be had from soft-synths?

You can get 80-s sound from them just like from real analog, u just need to keep in mind that they have few waves( just like analog) and will not not match a rompler for bells-brasses-harps-cellos-woodwind-whatever.. They play fat basses and moog leads better than typical digital synths,though.

Well, I have to say synth brass out of a good analog synth is amazing. Maybe I'll have to do some more experimenting.

The leads on today's Eurobeat don't sound too much like sampled brass to me, though.

[UQ100]

The most important point for Japanese is whether the songs are singable or not. You know, Japanese ppl care so much for singing that Karaoke was invented. This is what opens up a wide gap between Eurobeat and other electronic dance music.

Well, this somewhat relates to my view on this: there are many philosophical reasons why I think Eurobeat styles of music are rejected in Europe. In simple terms you could say it's too artifical, too manufactured and too sugary.

But it seems that strong melodies and glossy sounds are welcome in Japan? Or is that changing?

[Vadim]

Stock Aitken Waterman's early Hi-NRG moved onto sequencing. My historical awareness of Italo-Disco kinda starts with Den Harrow too.

Much indicates that earliest true hi nrg(80-s style) was made in Italy.
Late 70-s productions from Italy already had the sound that became
known as Italo. U.S.A. cought on with this new sound soon enough,as
Patrick Cowley pioneered this sound in N.America on his early 80-s albums. By the time SAW got around and developed their
take on it, this way of doing tunes was already well known in Europe.
SAW had a very high tech approach to producing this music and
they made melodies that were more interesting to ppl in U.K.
an U.S. than Italo. Eurobeat had a huge influence from SAW.
Perhaps it would be more interesting if Italo wasn't droped by late 80-s
in favor of hi nrg style from U.K., but instead evolved into the present.

Yep, yep. Do you think that today the same sound can be had from soft-synths?

Soft synths are more flexible, and you can get an emulation for any sort of sound. Some people manage to make them sound fantastic,others
sound terrible using them.

Well, I have to say synth brass out of a good analog synth is amazing. Maybe I'll have to do some more experimenting.

Have u got an analog synth..?

[UQ100]

Well, I have to say synth brass out of a good analog synth is amazing. Maybe I'll have to do some more experimenting.

Have u got an analog synth..?

Yes, I have a Roland MKS-70.

[UQ100]

Much indicates that earliest true hi nrg(80-s style) was made in Italy. Late 70-s productions from Italy already had the sound that became known as Italo.

That's interesting. Are there any particular examples of these early tracks?

By the time SAW got around and developed their take on it, this way of doing tunes was already well known in Europe. SAW had a very high tech approach to producing this music and they made melodies that were more interesting to ppl in U.K. an U.S. than Italo.

IMO, Mike Stock is one of the best songwriters around, his melodies and harmonies are fantastic. How do you think SAW melodies differed from Italo?

(Of course there's the case where Michael Fortunatti took SAW to court, IIRC, over "I Heard a Rumour" since it sounded just like "Give Me Up".)

Eurobeat had a huge influence from SAW.
Perhaps it would be more interesting if Italo wasn't droped by late 80-s in favor of hi nrg style from U.K., but instead evolved into the present.

It's always hard to say what would have happened. Big problem with SAW is they bought so much attention to this type of sound, and with it the potential for backlash against it. Their success, some bad choices of artists in 1989 (e.g. "Big Fun"), and that by that point they were becoming exhausted of creative energy, didn't help.

[Vadim]

That's interesting. Are there any particular examples of these early tracks?

I used to have more extensive info on the subject,but here is a bit.
Banana records(SIAE) produced earlest italo disco at least since 1978.
Producers for Banana Records were Claudio Simonetti , Giancarlo Meo.
Perhaps most famous banana records artist that got a start with this sound in late 70-s was Vivien Vee. 1979 self-titled album from V.V.
had these tracks:
1 Remember..... (9:0..)
2 Love In Spain (8:26)
1 Travelling (6:32)
2 Forgive Me (5:50)
3 At Last (6:29)
Simonetti seems to be a prominent figure among the pioneers of hi nrg.

IMO, Mike Stock is one of the best songwriters around, his melodies and harmonies are fantastic. How do you think SAW melodies differed from Italo?

My big all time faves are from PWL,and I am surely a fan of PWL,
though I don't like very many songs from them.
I think that SAW was influenced by american disco from 70-s and
R'N'B, beside the american hi nrg influence, and the italo disco was influenced from italian folk and classical among other things. I usually enjoy melodies with more european flavor.

(Of course there's the case where Michael Fortunatti took SAW to court, IIRC, over "I Heard a Rumour" since it sounded just like "Give Me Up".)

U can find a zillion tracks that resemble each other-just look at eurobeat.

It's always hard to say what would have happened. Big problem with SAW is they bought so much attention to this type of sound, and with it the potential for backlash against it.

I think that they droped their pure hi nrg dance too early,and moved
on onto a more obvious commercial pop. There is a choice to stay
with your sound or follow trends. People who like to stay famous preffer
following trends.

[UQ100]

I used to have more extensive info on the subject,but here is a bit.
Banana records(SIAE) produced earlest italo disco at least since 1978.
Producers for Banana Records were Claudio Simonetti , Giancarlo Meo.
Perhaps most famous banana records artist that got a start with this sound in late 70-s was Vivien Vee. 1979 self-titled album from V.V.
had these tracks:

This is all very interesting, thank you. After some searching on the Web seems there is not much information on that early album from Vivien Vee, I can only find a clip of a much later track, "Heartbeat".

Was the early sound more acoustic instrument based or synth based?

My big all time faves are from PWL,and I am surely a fan of PWL,
though I don't like very many songs from them.
I think that SAW was influenced by american disco from 70-s and
R'N'B, beside the american hi nrg influence, and the italo disco was influenced from italian folk and classical among other things. I usually enjoy melodies with more european flavor.

Well, has to be said exact influences are always hard to say. For example, there are definitely a few jazz influences in SAW, it's most obvious on a track like "Say I'm Your Number One" (1985) (which wasn't at all Hi-NRG) but if you understand music you'll get it on other tracks. In reality of course any musician and style will draw on many difference influences so it becomes like unscrambling an egg.

But maybe some differences are more obvious, some of the Hi-NRG from SAW has a rather "darker" sound than Italo.

(Of course there's the case where Michael Fortunatti took SAW to court, IIRC, over "I Heard a Rumour" since it sounded just like "Give Me Up".)

U can find a zillion tracks that resemble each other-just look at eurobeat.

Right... but trying to work out who created what and influenced who (if it's even possible), in terms of SAW vs. Italo seems it's necessary to go back before to earlier songs than that as clearly both aware of each other at that point.

I think that they droped their pure hi nrg dance too early,and moved
on onto a more obvious commercial pop. There is a choice to stay
with your sound or follow trends. People who like to stay famous preffer
following trends.

Reading through the forum archives I noticed in one post you said that you liked Kylie's first album. I don't know SAW sound really changed too much beyond that because that really was the SAW "pop" type sound. You still hear that type of sound on her track "Better the Devil" (1990). SAW output rapidly diminished after this and Aitken left in 1991, Stock a couple of years later. In fact many of the others (musicians and engineers) at PWL left as well, some of the mixing engineers actually went on to work on Avex productions (e.g. "Every Little Thing".) (Maybe Avex thought they'd get the SAW sound by hiring the engineers!) Later, PWL would do Steps and so on which may be the sound you mean but nothing to do with the real talents, Stock and Aitken.

After leaving PWL Stock launched his own record production company/label "Love This Records" (with Aitken) but to cut things short it was liquidated. Probably the mistake he made was thinking he could do it all over again but maybe if he did a deal with Avex and didn't spend (borrow) money to build expensive studios he could be on SEB even today. Then again Italo producers can perfectly recreate the SAW sound today, among the few on the planet with this ability.

[Vadim]

Was the early sound more acoustic instrument based or synth based?

Unlike typical orchestral disco,that seemed to sound electronic,more
like the genre that we know from 80-s.

Reading through the forum archives I noticed in one post you said that you liked Kylie's first album. I don't know SAW sound really changed too much beyond that because that really was the SAW "pop" type sound.

You can relate that sound from Kylie's first album to eurobeat,but u hardly can do that with Steps,FFR, and with whatever came out in 90-s from
former SAW producers. First Kylie sounded like trademark SAW hi nrg.

some of the mixing engineers actually went on to work on Avex productions (e.g. "Every Little Thing".) (Maybe Avex thought they'd get the SAW sound by hiring the engineers!)

Notably,David Ford and Pete Hammond did a lot of mixing for Avex
since mid 90-s. Typically,u find their mixes on T.Komuro projects
from 96,..
Globe(T.Komuro project),for example, was mixed by David Ford.

Probably the mistake he made was thinking he could do it all over again but maybe if he did a deal with Avex and didn't spend (borrow) money to build expensive studios he could be on SEB even today.

Germans and Britts were never comfortable with a method of mass
manufacture of empty names that italian dance industry preffered.
U.K. and Germany typically invested in real artists,but that also made their hi nrg\eurodisco producers more vulnerable to market changes and loss of artists. I wish that other nations could present their hi nrg
for Japanese market too, but that's nearly impossible.

Then again Italo producers can perfectly recreate the SAW sound today, among the few on the planet with this ability.

Those are merely eurobeat stylisations. SAW had a very
unique sound which has not been reproduced precisely like original
by anyone else. Copying was made,sure,but never a real reproduction.

[UQ100]

Unlike typical orchestral disco,that seemed to sound electronic,more like the genre that we know from 80-s.

Well, the oldest I found of Vivien Vee is "Higher" (1983?):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSuqoJL0zak

It seems elements of the arrangement are there, yet it also seems quite undeveloped at this stage. Perhaps a more straightforward comparison: seems to be also be the case with Raff's version of "Self Control" as compared to Laura Branigan's cover from 1984.

So, I'm very interested to know how far things were developed in Italy, or whether the sound was exported/copied/refined overseas and then re-imported.

You can relate that sound from Kylie's first album to eurobeat,but u hardly can do that with Steps,FFR, and with whatever came out in 90-s from
former SAW producers. First Kylie sounded like trademark SAW hi nrg.

Steps stuff is OK, nothing like as good as SAW in any way though. (Songwriting, production, etc., never mind whether you like the style.) By that time, though, Waterman must have been glad to finally have a hit act to pay the bills.

As for Stock and Aitken, Stock has complained that the music industry did not exactly want him to succeed at this point and put roadblocks (no pun intended) in the way to his success. Who knows though. But at this stage it would be foolish to make the songs sound exactly like SAW material, and besides, later he was reduced to working on Robson & Jerome records, and finally, his business folded.

What I do not understand to this day is why SAW and Hi-NRG as a whole were dismissed so strongly.

some of the mixing engineers actually went on to work on Avex productions (e.g. "Every Little Thing".) (Maybe Avex thought they'd get the SAW sound by hiring the engineers!)

Notably,David Ford and Pete Hammond did a lot of mixing for Avex since mid 90-s. Typically,u find their mixes on T.Komuro projects from 96,.. Globe(T.Komuro project),for example, was mixed by David Ford.

Yes. I don't believe that this really did much for that material in a musical sense, though, as that was never their job. It seems Avex were after the SAW sound, though, so I would have thought Stock and Aitken could have worked for them, as long as they set themselves up to aim for that market, not develop acts for the UK/Europe.

Germans and Britts were never comfortable with a method of mass manufacture of empty names that italian dance industry preffered.U.K. and Germany typically invested in real artists,but that also made their hi nrg\eurodisco producers more vulnerable to market changes and loss of artists.

Well, this to me is a fascinating area. Is this still the case in Italy today or are "real" artists demanded? How about in Japan, or is this just a Eurobeat thing?

I wish that other nations could present their hi nrg for Japanese market too, but that's nearly impossible.

Clearly not today, but how about in the early/earlier days of SEB?

Then again Italo producers can perfectly recreate the SAW sound today, among the few on the planet with this ability.

Those are merely eurobeat stylisations. SAW had a very unique sound which has not been reproduced precisely like original by anyone else. Copying was made,sure,but never a real reproduction.

Of course you are right, I should not have said it was a "perfect" copy, that would of course be impossible. But it is not just superficial to me, the melody, chords, and much of the arrangement is clearly based on SAW tracks, albeit also with Eurobeat influence (e.g., "Victim" by Leslie Parrish or some Kevin Johnson tracks.) To me, that anyone manages it is worthy of a lot of respect since this is not such an easy task; the style is totally undocumented. I believe Eurobeat producers in Italy today are among the few capable of creating new material in that style and even fewer who are doing it. Of course you could probably say this for all of Eurobeat as well.

[Vadim]

So, I'm very interested to know how far things were developed in Italy, or whether the sound was exported/copied/refined overseas and then re-imported.

U can gain a lot of insight into an evolution of italo and some other styles, since early 80-s, by listening to retro tracks that are still released on popular best of italo disco (zyx) and a spanish compilation like *i love disco diamonds*(blanco y negro).

But at this stage it would be foolish to make the songs sound exactly like SAW material.

This sound was not in demand in Europe anymore,but in Japan,as we know,was another matter.

What I do not understand to this day is why SAW and Hi-NRG as a whole were dismissed so strongly.

16 years of techno domination make it hard for different,less synthetic
and more optimistic, music philosophy to make it in the present.

It seems Avex were after the SAW sound, though, so I would have thought Stock and Aitken could have worked for them, as long as they set themselves up to aim for that market, not develop acts for the UK/Europe.

Japanese eurobeat market is oriented towards many virtual artists-many productions approach, when SAW is noted for doing the opposite.
Why go for a few albums and 20 tracks from U.K. when u can have thousands of tracks done with virtual artists in Italy..?

Well, this to me is a fascinating area. Is this still the case in Italy today or are "real" artists demanded? How about in Japan, or is this just a Eurobeat thing?

Apparently eurobeat is not under any pressure to create real artists in Japan. Proper eurobeat albums are a great rarity and usually just compile
tracks that were released on SEB's anyway.
Other laws of phisics entirely would apply to all other genres of music.

Clearly not today, but how about in the early/earlier days of SEB?

Songs that made charts in Europe often found their way on japanese compilations in the 80-s. Eurobeat today appears to be very isolated
and self-centered. Same labels and same producers year after year
from only one nation(Italy).

I believe Eurobeat producers in Italy today are among the few capable of creating new material in that style and even fewer who are doing it. Of course you could probably say this for all of Eurobeat as well.

Contemporary eurobeat is a different style from the british hi nrg.
Hi nrg is often portrayed as a genre,not just as american and british
80-s dance style.